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Interview du journaliste israélien Gideon Levy


Après le traducteur afghan, voici un autre whistleblower, "lanceur d'alerte" comme disent les américains. Cette fois-ci il est israélien et dénonce l'occupation de la Palestine par Israël. De plus en plus d'individus se lèvent pour dénoncer de l'intérieur ce à quoi ils assistent. C'est encourageant. Encore une fois rappelons l'existence de Wikileaks, formidable levier pour ce type de démarche.


David Cronin : Vous êtes né à Tel Aviv dans les années 1950. Vos parents sont-ils des survivants de l'Holocauste ?

 

Gideon Levy : Ils ne sont pas des survivants de l'Holocauste, ils ont juste quitté l'Europe en 1939. Mon père était originaire d'Allemagne, ma mère tchèque. Tous les deux étaient des réfugiés typiques car mon père est arrivé illégalement sur un bateau qui a été bloqué pendant 6 mois à Beyrouth par les Britanniques et c'est seulement après encore 6 mois passés en mer qu'il a pu débarquer en Palestine. Ma mère est arrivée dans le cadre d’un programme de l’ONG Save the Children (Sauveons les enfants).. Elle est venue sans ses parents et s'est rendue directement dans un kibboutz.

 

Mon père a toujours dit qu'il n'avait jamais trouvé sa place en Israël. Il y a vécu pendant 60 ans mais sa vie était détruite. Il a un doctorat en droit mais n'a jamais exercé en Israël. Il n'a jamais vraiment parlé l'hébreu correctement. Je pense qu'il a été vraiment traumatisé toute sa vie.

 

En même temps, il n'a jamais voulu retourner en Europe même en simple visiteur. Il était originaire des Sudètes qui sont devenues tchécoslovaques. Tous les Allemands en ont été expulsés.

 

DG : De quelle manière l'histoire de vos parents vous a-t-elle affecté durant votre enfance et adolescence ?

 

GL : J'étais un immigrant type de la première génération. Quand ma mère me parlait en allemand, j'avais grand honte car elle me parlait dans une langue étrangère. Son prénom était Théa ; je l'ai toujours appelé Léa. Théa est un nom grec issu de la mythologie. C'est un prénom magnifique mais quand j'étais enfant, j'ai toujours dit Léa pour couvrir le fait qu'ils étaient immigrants.

 

Le nom de ma famille était Loewy et pendant de nombreuses années, on m'a appelé Loewy. Puis j'en ai changé pour Levy et maintenant je le regrette beaucoup.

 

DC : Parlez-moi de votre service militaire dans l'armée israélienne.

 

GL : J'ai fait mon service militaire dans la station de radio de l'armée. J'ai toujours été un bon petit gars de Tel Aviv, j'avais une vision très traditionnelle, je n'ai pas grandi dans une maison où on parlait politique.

 

J'étais dans cette station de radio pendant quatre ans au lieu de trois (la durée standard du service militaire) mais la quatrième année en tant que civil. C'est une station de radio très populaire, elle est financée par l'armée mais elle est entièrement civile.

 

Je n'avais pas du tout conscience de ce qu'était l'occupation. C'était un mot que je n'osais pas prononcer. J'étais un produit typique du système d'endoctrinement israélien, je ne posais pas de question et je n'avais pas de doute. J'avais une grande fierté nationale, je pensais que nous étions les meilleurs.

 

Je me souviens de ma première visite dans les territoires occupés (la Cisjordanie et la bande de Gaza). Je ressentais beaucoup d'émotions nationales en visitant la tombe de Rachel et la mosquée à Hébron. Je n'ai vu aucun Palestinien à ce moment-là. Je me souviens juste des draps blancs sur les terrasses. J'étais même convaincu qu'ils étaient heureux que nous les ayons vaincus, qu'ils étaient reconnaissants que nous ayons libéré les Palestiniens du régime jordanien.

 

DC : Quel a été le tournant qui vous a amené à critiquer l'occupation ?

 

GL : Il n'y a pas eu de moment décisif. Ça a été un processus progressif. Ça a commencé quand je me suis mis à voyager dans les territoires occupés en tant que journaliste pour Haaretz. Ce n'est pas comme si j'avais décidé un jour "je dois couvrir l'occupation". Non, pas du tout. J'ai été attiré progressivement comme un papillon par le feu ou par une lumière.

 

Mes opinions politiques se sont forgées au cours des années. Ce n'est pas comme si j'avais changé en un jour. Ça a vraiment été un processus progressif lors duquel j'ai réalisé l'importance du drame : le sionisme, l'occupation. Et en même temps, j'ai réalisé qu'il n'y avait personne pour le dire aux Israéliens. Je ramenais très souvent des récits en exclusivité car presque aucun d'autre (journaliste israélien) n’était présent. Durant la première Intifada (palestinienne), il y avait un certain intérêt dans les médias israéliens. Mais entre la première Intifada et la seconde Intifada, je me suis vraiment retrouvé tout seul à couvrir le côté palestinien.

 

DC : Avez-vous complètement rejeté le sionisme ?

 

GL : Le sionisme a plusieurs significations. Bien entendu, le concept le plus courant du sionisme comprend l'occupation, comprend la perception que les Juifs ont plus de droits en Palestine que n'importe qui d'autre, que le peuple juif est le peuple élu, qu'il ne peut pas y avoir d'égalité entre les Juifs et les Arabes, entre les Juifs et les Palestiniens. Je ne peux pas partager toutes ces croyances qui sont fondamentales dans le sionisme d'aujourd'hui. En ce sens, je peux me définir comme anti-sioniste.

 

D'un autre côté, la croyance selon laquelle le peuple juif a le droit de vivre en Palestine, côte à côte avec les Palestiniens, en faisant tout ce qui possible pour dédommager les Palestiniens de la terrible tragédie qu'ils ont du traverser en 1948, cela peut également être appelé la croyance sioniste. Dans ce cas, je partage cette vision.

 

DC : Si quelqu'un vous considérait comme sioniste modéré, y verriez vous une objection ?

 

GL : Les sionistes modérés sont comme la gauche sioniste en Israël, que je ne peux pas supporter. Comme Meretz et Peace Now par exemple, qui ne sont pas prêts à ouvrir les "dossiers de 1948" et à comprendre que tant nous n'aurons pas résolu ce point, rien ne pourra fonctionner. Ceux-là sont les sionistes modérés. Dans ce cas, je préfère encore la droite.

 

DC : La droite est plus honnête ?

 

GL : Exactement.

 

DC : En tant que juif israélien, avez-vous rencontré de l'hostilité de la part des Palestiniens pendant votre travail dans les territoires occupés palestiniens ?

 

GL : Jamais. Et c'est le plus incroyable. Je les ai parcourus pendant 25 ans. J'ai été sur la scène des plus grosses tragédies un jour après qu'elles s’étaient produites. Il y avait des gens qui avaient perdu cinq enfants d’un coup, même sept enfants une fois.

 

J'étais toujours là-bas le matin après l'événement et j'aurais compris qu'ils me disent : "Écoutez, nous ne voulons pas parler à un Israélien, partez." Non, il y avait toujours une ouverture pour raconter. Il y avait cette croyance naïve, cet espoir que s'ils le racontaient aux Israéliens à travers moi, les Israéliens changeraient, qu'un récit dans les médias israéliens pourrait peut-être les aider.

 

Ils ne savent pas qui je suis. Le peuple n'a jamais entendu parler de moi : ce n'est pas comme si j'avais un nom là-bas. La seule fois où on a tiré sur notre voiture, c'était des soldats israéliens. C'était durant l'été 2003. Nous nous déplacions dans un taxi avec une plaque jaune, un taxi israélien, blindé sinon je ne serais plus là aujourd'hui. Il était clair que c'était un taxi israélien. Nous suivions une instruction de couvre-feu. Un officier nous a dit : "Vous pouvez passer par cette route". Et quand nous nous sommes engagés sur cette route, ils nous ont tiré dessus. Je ne pense pas qu'ils savaient qui nous étions. Ils nous tiraient dessus comme ils auraient tiré sur n'importe qui. Ils avaient la gâchette facile comme ils l'ont toujours. C'était comme fumer une cigarette. Ils n'ont pas tiré qu'une balle. La voiture était remplie de balles.

 

DC : Etes-vous allé à Gaza récemment ?

 

GL : On m'a empêché d'y aller. La dernière fois que j'y suis allé, c'était en novembre 2006. Comme je l'ai mentionné dans l'avant-propos de mon livre, je suis allé voir le jardin d’enfants Indira Gandhi à Gaza le jour après qu'une puéricultrice (Najwa Khalif), eut été tuée devant tous ses petits élèves (par un missile israélien). Quand je suis arrivé, ils retiraient les cadavres, il y avait un avion dans le ciel et un char au sol. Je suis juste allé aux funérailles de la puéricultrice. Cet jardin d’enfants s'appelait Indira Gandhi pas parce qu'Indira Gandhi (le Premier ministre indien assassiné) s'y était impliquée mais parce que la propriétaire de ce jardin d’enfants avait reçu le nom d'Indira Gandhi par admiration pour Indira Gandhi.

 

DC : Vous avez souvent mentionné combien vous appréciez de jouir d'une complète liberté pour écrire ce que vous vouliez. Mais n'avez-vous pas l'impression que la vie devient de plus en plus difficile pour les gens qui sont critiques envers Israël et que le gouvernement essaie activement de réprimer la contestation ?

 

GL : Pour moi personnellement, en écrivant pour Haaretz et en passant à la TV, cela ne m'a pas fait gagner plus de liberté. Aujourd'hui je passe chaque semaine à la TV israélienne dans un programme de débats. Il y a eu des périodes pendant lesquelles il fallait être plus prudent, il y a eu des périodes pendant lesquelles les mots « crimes de guerre » étaient illégaux, même pour Haaretz. Aujourd'hui, ces mots sont partout et je suis totalement, totalement libre. Aucune pression du gouvernement ou de l'armée, rien.

 

Mais bien sûr, cette dernière année il y a eu de vraies fêlures dans le système démocratique d'Israël. Les autorités ont essayé d'empêcher les manifestants de se rendre à Bilin (un village de Cisjordanie, la scène de protestations fréquentes contre le mur construit par Israël). Mais il y a également un processus de délégitimation de toutes sortes de groupes et d'organisations non gouvernementales, pour réellement faire taire toutes ces voix. Ce n'est pas occasionnel, c'est systématique. Les choses deviennent bien plus difficiles. Ils l'ont fait à Breaking the Silence  (« Briser le silence ») (un groupe de soldats critiques de l'occupation) de manière tout à fait cruelle mais très efficace. "Briser le silence" ne peut plus manifester sa contestation. Et ils l'ont fait à beaucoup d'autres organisations, comme ISM, le Mouvement de Solidarité Internationale, qui est considéré comme un ennemi en Israël.

 

DC : Avez-vous rencontré Rachel Corrie, militante pour la paix Usaméricaine tuée par un bulldozer israélien il y a sept ans ?

 

GL : Je ne l'ai jamais rencontrée, malheureusement. J'ai juste regardé le film qui lui a été consacré, la semaine dernière. Rachel, James Miller et Tom Hurndall ont tous été tués sur une période de six à sept semaines, l'un après l'autre, au même endroit, plus ou moins, à Gaza. Il est clair que c'était un message.

 

DC : Que pensez-vous de la décision de ses parents d'intenter un procès à l'État d'Israël pour sa mort ?

 

GL : Excellent. Je les ai vu tous les deux quand ils étaient en Israël. Ils sont tellement nobles. Ils parlent de la tragédie du soldat qui a tué leur fille, en disant que c'est aussi une victime. Et ils sont tellement délicats. J'admire la façon dont ils gèrent cela et j'espère qu'ils vont gagner. Ils méritent un dédommagement, des excuses, quelque chose. Leur fille a été assassinée.

 

J'ai participé à un film au sujet de James Miller, un documentaire de la BBC. L'histoire de James Miller est encore plus bouleversante. Il y a eu un vrai meurtre. Ils savaient qu'il était journaliste, il était photographe, sur sa veste était écrit « Presse ». Il était clair que c'était un journaliste. Et ils lui ont juste tiré dessus.

 

DC : Que pensez-vous du soi-disant affront d'Israël envers les USA quand a été annoncée la construction de nouvelles colonies à Jérusalem-Est pendant la visite au Moyen-Orient du vice-président US, Joe Biden ?

 

GL : Je pense vraiment qu'il est trop tôt pour en juger. Quelque chose se prépare. C'est certain qu'il y a un changement dans l'atmosphère. Il est certain que Netanyahou (le Premier ministre israélien) transpire. Et la question est : est-ce que les Usaméricains ont un programme clair ?

 

Une chose est claire : Israël n'a jamais été aussi dépendant des USA qu'aujourd'hui. Jusqu'à maintenant, (Barack) Obama a fait toutes les erreurs qu'il est possible de faire. Sa première année a été un gâchis. Mais pourtant nous devons leur donner (aux Usaméricains) une chance car il est certain qu'il y a un changement de ton. Mais j'ai peur que leur but principal soit de se débarrasser de Netanyahou. Et si c'est le cas, cela ne va nous mener à rien. Avec la personne qui le remplacera, ce sera plus ou moins la même, juste en plus gentil. Et ce sera à nouveau cette mascarade du processus de paix, de belles occasions de faire des photos, de gentillesses qui ne mènent à rien. De ce point de vue, je préfère un gouvernement de droite. Au moins, avec eux, il n'y a pas de surprise.

 

DC : L'Espagne, l'actuelle détentrice de la présidence tournante de l'Union Européenne, semble désireuse de renforcer les relations de l'Europe avec Israël. Quel signal enverrait une plus grande intégration d'Israël dans le programme politique et économique de l'E.U. ?

 

GL : Je pense qu'il serait honteux de récompenser Israël aujourd'hui. La récompenser pour quoi ? Pour construire plus de colonies ? Mais je pense également que l'Europe suivra les changements à Washington comme elle suit presque aveuglément, tout ce que font les Usaméricains.

 

DC : Il y a eu une controverse mineure récemment sur le fait qu'Ethan Bronner, le correspondant du New York Times à Jérusalem, a un fils dans l'armée israélienne. Avez-vous aussi un enfant dans l'armée et pensez-vous que, de ce fait, Bronner ait été compromis par cette affaire ?

 

GL : Mon fils sert dans l'armée. Mon fils ne sert pas dans les territoires mais je me suis toujours déconnecté de mes fils. Ils ont leurs vies propres et je n'ai pas essayé de les influencer.

 

En ce qui concerne Ethan Bronner, c'est vraiment une question très délicate. Le fait qu'il y ait tant de journalistes juifs, de journalistes sionistes qui fassent des reportages pour leurs médias nationaux depuis le Moyen-Orient, est certainement un problème. D'un autre côté, je sais, de par ma propre expérience, que vous pouvez avoir un fils qui sert dans l'armée et être vous-même très critique. Je n'en ferai pas une raison suffisante pour lui interdire de couvrir le Moyen-Orient pour The New York Times, même si, je dois l'admettre, Il y a peu de possibilités que le correspondant du New York Times à Jérusalem soit quelqu'un dont le fils puisse servir dans les Brigades des martyrs d'Al-Aqsa (l'organisation de la résistance palestinienne), par exemple.

 

DC : Quel rôle peuvent jouer les journalistes pour essayer de parvenir à une solution juste et durable au conflit entre Israéliens et Palestiniens ?

 

GL : Le rôle historique que jouent les médias israéliens est énorme. Les médias israéliens, qui sont des médias libres, libres de censure, libres de pression gouvernementale ont déshumanisé les Palestiniens, les diabolisant. Sans la coopération des médias israéliens, l'occupation n'aurait pas duré si longtemps. Ils sont destructifs d'une façon que je ne peux même pas décrire. Ce n'est pas la Roumanie, ce n'est pas la Russie soviétique. C'est une démocratie libre, les médias peuvent jouer le rôle qu'ils veulent mais ils ont choisi de jouer ce rôle. Et quand on voit le flot d'informations : il est tellement unilatéral, il y a tellement de propagandes, de mensonges et d'ignorance.

 

 





Source :

A rare voice of courage: journalist Gideon Levy interviewed


Article original publié le 31/3/2010

Sur l’auteur

Tlaxcala est le réseau international de traducteurs pour la diversité linguistique. Cette traduction est libre de reproduction, à condition d'en respecter l’intégrité et d’en mentionner l’auteur, la traductrice, l'éditeur et la source.

URL de cet article sur Tlaxcala :
http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=10321&lg=fr


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Calendrier


Deprecated: Non-static method util::getNextPrev() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/layout/class.xblog.php on line 110

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Deprecated: Non-static method dt::str() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/layout/class.xblog.php on line 138

Strict Standards: Non-static method dt::_callback() should not be called statically in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/inc/libs/lib.date.php on line 35

Strict Standards: Non-static method dt::_callback() should not be called statically in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/inc/libs/lib.date.php on line 35

Deprecated: Non-static method dt::str() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/layout/class.xblog.php on line 139

Strict Standards: Non-static method dt::_callback() should not be called statically in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/inc/libs/lib.date.php on line 35

Strict Standards: Non-static method dt::_callback() should not be called statically in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/inc/libs/lib.date.php on line 35

Deprecated: Non-static method dt::str() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/layout/class.xblog.php on line 138

Strict Standards: Non-static method dt::_callback() should not be called statically in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/inc/libs/lib.date.php on line 35

Strict Standards: Non-static method dt::_callback() should not be called statically in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/inc/libs/lib.date.php on line 35

Deprecated: Non-static method dt::str() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/layout/class.xblog.php on line 139

Strict Standards: Non-static method dt::_callback() should not be called statically in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/inc/libs/lib.date.php on line 35

Strict Standards: Non-static method dt::_callback() should not be called statically in /home/gillesbe/www/ramassi/dotclear/inc/libs/lib.date.php on line 35
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